Moog Sound Addiction

[museslave]

So, for the first time in far too long, I sat down to noodle with my dot com modular. I was totally dissatisfied with the sound.
It dawned on me that the Minimoog has really ruined my ability to appreciate other synthesizers. Since it sounds precisely as I want my analog synthesizers to sound, I find that other synthesizers aren't used as much, and often suffer by comparison. (this is not to say that it is the best synthesizer, merely saying that it always does what I want it to do)
So, I started noodling with the modular and was just stricken with how sort of dull the oscillators sound. I mean, they are filled with functionality, but the sound is just sort of uninteresting and flat. Certainly used with all of the other modules I have, I can create fantastic sounds... but those oscillators really suffer by comparison for me.

For the first time, I considered selling it for something else. Perhaps a 2600 or a VCS3. I considered it VERY hard. (and still might be swayed, maybe, if someone bought it or traded it WHOLE for a VCS3 or perhaps a 2600 [disclaimer: both of those synthesizers are VASTLY less functional than this device is... you can see mine on my MySpace page... but both of those devices are vintage and visually and aurally aesthetically exciting to me, so... it's a tradeoff])

Luckily, though... I came up with a solution. My trusty MoogerFooger low pass, set all the way open, does its magic with those oscillators... it gives them that Moog Sound that is so desireable. Even just running the oscs through the Moogerfooger with resonance off and the filter all the way open... immediately, there is a desireable difference and I am much more happy with the patches I create. It's amazing. Perhaps a new Moog product would be Moogerfoogers in module form for dot com and MOTM, etc. modulars. : )

[Kevin Lightner]

Just curious, but would you say that your Mini and .com VCOs sound the same when dry and there's no filtering present?

[museslave]

Hello, Mr. Lightner. : )

No, I would say that they do not, and that is primarily the issue for me.
Of course, I do not have the ability to hear the Minimoog oscillators without having them going through the Moog filter, so it may be that my portrayal of the weakness of .com oscillators may be in some ways a portrayal of a lack of the Moog filter, which is why I ran them through the Moogerfooger.

.com oscillators going through the Moogerfooger filter sound different from Minimoog oscillators going through the Minimoog filter... and I mean different in a timbral sense, and not just the sense of what the filter is doing to the timbre, too. (I know that there are likely differences between the Moogerfooger filter and the Minimoog filter)

Running the .com oscillators through the .com transistor ladder filter does not make them sound Moog-like at all, in comparison to running them through the Moogerfooger, or in comparison to the Minimoog oscillators going through the Minimoog filter.

I suppose the experiment I SHOULD do is to connect the .com oscillators to the audio input of the Minimoog, and see what happens then.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into your question, but do you suppose that there is very little difference between the Minimoog oscillators and the .com oscillators?

[Kevin Lightner]

Perhaps I'm reading too much into your question, but do you suppose that there is very little difference between the Minimoog oscillators and the .com oscillators?

No, I believe the Minis oscillators are fairly unique compared to many other synths.
I was just curious if the differences you noted were due to the oscs or the filters.

Fwiw, if the filter is turned fully up on a mini (resonance down), it's pretty much the sound of the raw vcos. (Add an env with sustain if needed to open fully)

[museslave]

Fwiw, if the filter is turned fully up on a mini (resonance down), it's pretty much the sound of the raw vcos. (Add an env with sustain if needed to open fully)

In that case, there is a world of difference between the .com oscillators and the Minimoog oscillators!
With that configuration, the .com oscillators (through a .com transistor-ladder filter) sound much thinner and with more upper-frequency content. Even through the Moogerfooger, with filter all the way open and resonance off, the .com sounds thinner.

Incidentally, I am not bashing .com oscillators. While I would say they lack a defineable or perhaps specifically desireable character, they're very useful and seem as good as many non-Moog vintage oscillators I've used.

And also, I tend to want the buzzy, noisy, "imperfect" sounds of early 70s synths... so, the more precise and clean sound of the .coms might be slightly less desireable to me than perhaps some of the synths I have considered trading this modular for. I'm stricken with the irony of it, and actually am sometimes incredulous at myself... "okay, so you'd give up the immense functionality your .com synth possesses for characteristics in older synths that most people consider flaws???"

[Sweep]

And also, I tend to want the buzzy, noisy, "imperfect" sounds of early 70s synths...

Slightly at a tangent, perhaps, but related to the subject of oscillator character, and `impefection':

I've been listening a lot to TONTO's Zero Time album lately. That, and a conversation with a Moog modular owner about instability in the early Moog oscillators (well, a 901 joke, to be honest) seems to have made me aware of the way oscillator drift can contribute to the overall character of the sound, so long as it's slight enough.

I found myself setting up a slow oscillator pitch change from the Voyager LFO and controlling it from the mod wheel. With only a very slight raising of the Amount pot it's interesting to put just a little drift into the oscillator pitch. When you hardly know there's any change at all, but there's still a change happening, the effect is a subtle richness that some of us may find effective.

I believe some synth makers have built this kind of thing into VA instruments, but I don't know if many of us have tried it with Moog oscillators, or with the .com oscillators for that matter? It may help with that early 70s character - without the serious pitch wandering that made life hell at the time.

[museslave]

Hey, Sweep! Very good point!
In the patching session that had me not entirely certain I wanted to give up the .com, I did precisely that... at first I set a very slow LFO to the linear input of one oscillator, and mixed it just at the point where it seemed to become somewhat imperceptible... it did give body to the oscillator's mixed sound. Later, I ran a Sample and Hold signal through the slew limiter to generate a random yet not quantized signal which I also used in a very tiny amount to generate slight pitch imperfection!

This is why I don't mind tuning my Minimoog oscillators as often as I do. : )

I suppose what it comes down to is that natural sounds do not possess pitch perfection. While it is irritating to have to tune a Moog modular (so I've heard), one of the contributing factors to its organic sound is its "flawed" intonation, and I'm sure it's true (to a lesser degree) for the Minimoog.

[CTRLSHFT]

And also, I tend to want the buzzy, noisy, "imperfect" sounds of early 70s synths...

Slightly at a tangent, perhaps, but related to the subject of oscillator character, and `impefection':

I've been listening a lot to TONTO's Zero Time album lately. That, and a conversation with a Moog modular owner about instability in the early Moog oscillators (well, a 901 joke, to be honest) seems to have made me aware of the way oscillator drift can contribute to the overall character of the sound, so long as it's slight enough.

I found myself setting up a slow oscillator pitch change from the Voyager LFO and controlling it from the mod wheel. With only a very slight raising of the Amount pot it's interesting to put just a little drift into the oscillator pitch. When you hardly know there's any change at all, but there's still a change happening, the effect is a subtle richness that some of us may find effective.

I believe some synth makers have built this kind of thing into VA instruments, but I don't know if many of us have tried it with Moog oscillators, or with the .com oscillators for that matter? It may help with that early 70s character - without the serious pitch wandering that made life hell at the time.

Not to go off moog topic, but DSI's evolver has a drift functionality for it's VCOs. I really wish moog could put this into place as an editable global parameter. It'd be awesome; I love it on my evolver, and think it'd be insanely cool on my LP, let alone on the voyager!

[Sweep]

This idea can also produce some rich and unusual tones (Again, I don't know how widely used this may be, but it isn't something I recall ever seeing built into a synth):

Take a sine wave. Feed it into a pitch shifter. Take the output and slightly distort it, with some filtering. Feed the result back into the pitch shifter alongside the original sine tone. Control the feedback loop carefully!

Or something like that. I set this up quite a while ago and sampled quite a few unusual rich tones from it, using different settings and carefully controlling the loop back into the pitch shifter. I can check the notes I made at the time if the above doesn't work.

This is an idea Delia Derbyshire used on the original Dr Who music.

[CTRLSHFT]

This idea can also produce some rich and unusual tones (Again, I don't know how widely used this may be, but it isn't something I recall ever seeing built into a synth):

Take a sine wave. Feed it into a pitch shifter. Take the output and slightly distort it, with some filtering. Feed the result back into the pitch shifter alongside the original sine tone. Control the feedback loop carefully!

Or something like that. I set this up quite a while ago and sampled quite a few unusual rich tones from it, using different settings and carefully controlling the loop back into the pitch shifter. I can check the notes I made at the time if the above doesn't work.

This is an idea Delia Derbyshire used on the original Dr Who music.

sounds very close to a ring modulator.

[Sweep]

Yes, I suppose that's probably how the ring mod developed. Maybe when I said I haven't seen this set-up on a synth I was showing my lack of technical knowledge. The tones I got differed from the ring mod tones I've got with other gear enough to be useful as something distinct in themselves, though, so I'd definitey recommend trying that set-up in any case.

[Kevin Lightner]

No slam to anyone, but please don't confuse drift with other possibile qualities.
Drift is an *overall* change of frequency over time, either up or down.
The static tone of an osc has nothing to do with drift.
If you could hear drift in just a few seconds, you'd never have an in-tune synth.
I've previously documented jitter in Moog 901 vcos.
Additionally, Minimoogs have a small amount of AC that bleeds into the vcos and the vcos affect each other. This is all tone quality, not drift.
(note also that later Minis added more PSU filtering and have very slightly less of this quality.)
I could make a CEM3340 drift slowly, but it wouldn't sound like a Moog VCO.

Here's something you might find interesting.
A Moog 901B makes it's entire waveform from just one transistor.
It's a special type of transistor though. (unijunction)
But what's funny is that one other VCO is extremely close to the 901B in this regard.
The Paia 4720!

[Sweep]

Thanks, Kevin. I've tended to think of this slightly audible quality as `drift' since the person who taught me how to play synth called it that. (I had access to a studio with a Mark II VCS3 back in 1978). From what you've said it sounds like there's a need to be more consistent with terminology.

Would the change over a few seconds be the `jitter' you referred to, rather than drift?

What I've been programming with the Voyager does sound musically interesting in the right context, but I'd like to call it by the right term.

[solarpanelasses]

I too use a mf-101 to make my oscillators sound much more like that desirable moog sound. My main setup is a CV'd multi and micro. I love my multi more than anything, but the filter is just absolutely horrible in my eyes. it only starts to open up about halfway on the dial and it just makes my VCOs sound cold. Dont get me wrong, theyre a lot warmer and richer than some other VCOs ive heard but that filter is just god awful. I use my i use my mooger filter as the main filter for that synth now and everything just sounds so much better.

[varice]

I too use a mf-101 to make my oscillators sound much more like that desirable moog sound. My main setup is a CV'd multi and micro. I love my multi more than anything, but the filter is just absolutely horrible in my eyes. it only starts to open up about halfway on the dial and it just makes my VCOs sound cold. Dont get me wrong, theyre a lot warmer and richer than some other VCOs ive heard but that filter is just god awful. I use my i use my mooger filter as the main filter for that synth now and everything just sounds so much better.

I can also testify about the sonic magic that an MF-101 can do to the sound of a synth. I modified my Clavia Nord Modular G2X digital synth to use the MF-101 for mono synth patches. The G2X/MF-101 combo sounds great! If you have not seen this already, check it out:

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-12266.html

museslave, you did not mention how hard you were driving the MF-101. As you probably know, the amount of MF-101 drive level will also change the character of the sound. Are you driving the MF-101 Level LED mostly in the green, yellow, or red for the sound that you like the most?